DUST Search - Tank bawl thread! oh and dropships too.

nakaya indigene wrote:

I agree in the respect that this is game built on space vehicles and that the game is centered around vehicles.. this game is straying FAR away from ccp's a future vision video.. vehicles in every scene. this is not COD or BF3. the rhetoric that ccp has been driving this whole time is each role has specific requirement on the battle field and that eve and dust are about gang warfare. the tank pilot needs infantry to cover him and vice versa..
but if there is no tank, or dropship or LAV then the balance of the game has indeed changed to sit on top of a mountain and snipe and swarm. I have been in Sooooooooo many games where these guys would not move from one location.. the dynamic of the battlefield has been disrupted. before this update. it was tank on tank, tanks blew up. lav on lav, lavs blowing up and a couple dropships. NOT what these people on the forums have been saying, about 1 tank wiping the floor with another whole team..
its like the frigate pilot complaining about a battle crustier being OP. STOP TURNING THIS GAME INTO AN INFANTRY GAME.


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Goliath Raven Osmon Surveillance Caldari State 80	Posted - 2012.09.18 05:43:00 - [1] - Quote Ok, from a numbers point of view, the nerf took out about 32% of my tanks max ehp (after adapting it for the new max ehp) and increased the AV damage by 25%. This is in a Sagaris. It has hurt Gunnlogi and Sica worse and far worse respectively. These days a Sagaris is about like a Sica used to be, A gunnlogi is a bit worse off and you might as well field a Lav instead of a Sica, you will only survive at most two hits either way. The effects this has had on my as a Sagaris pilot: Income is in the negatives. -6 Million in about 3 days of gameplay. (I'v been fielding tanks regularly to try and get an idea of how much of a difference there is.) I am driven off by two people with swarm launchers fairly regularly although alone they are not much of a threat of killing me (In a Sagaris I can usually run away in time). I am killed by a forge gun on average once every 6 matches. (Thats at MOST a 1.2 Million isk winnings vs a 2.2 Million isk loss) I am engaged with enemy tanks FAR more rarely now. My kills have dropped significantly in battles (avg of 14 -20 to an avg of 6-12) I seem to be a prime target when I field my tank. Some of these are undoubtedly good, but some are obviously bad. The big one being that it is near impossible to make isk as a tank pilot now. If you field a tank it comes with a 2 million isk price tag and a GIANT "150 - 250 wp HERE!" sticker plastered all over the thing. For those who say that I should save up a few matches to buy my tank, that is arguing that tank piloting should be a hobby in the game and not a profession. Why could we not make the same argument about any class? Maybe we should all take our turns in logi suits to pay for our little assault hobby or AV hobby or sniper hobby? It may be interesting, but I don't think that is the way this game should be. Each profession should be able to make a living, when one falls below its ability to do so, balancing is required. I feel tanks have fallen below this line, and dropships are abysmal. A few questions I have for AV people now, specifically forge gunners: When you see a tank dropping into the battle field do you feel more intimidated or giddy? Be honest. How do you think an advanced tank on the battlefield (Suya or Sagaris) should make you feel in a reasonable combat simulator? How hard do you feel a tank is to kill now? Do you think you should be able to snipe with forge gun? And most of all, I was honest when tanks were op and said so, and asked that some of you voice your concern when the tank nerf came if it was too much. If you feel it is too much, please say so and let the devs know the need to make some SMALL changes this time to fix balance. I have a few ideas for changes that may help game balance and gameplay. Don't reduce the range of forge guns, just put a little bit of fire variance so they are not accurate all the way across the map. Adjust the damage of forge guns. 25% reduction was too much but a 25% boost on top of a 32% reduction in tank ehp is too much the other way. Lets find a happy balance. Either take away the 25% boost or give us back 5%-7% on all our resistance amps and maybe 2%-3% back to dcu's. Dropships need a base HP boost. Everyone I'v seen dies to one railgun turret blast, so now I just don't see them anymore. The shield nerf killed dropship pilots as few people seem to realize that the resistance amps were pretty much the only thing keeping those guys in the air. Make it so they can at least survive one swarm launcher! Jeeps need a bigger place on the field. Does anyone spec into the higher tier jeeps? If so what do you use them for? It seems to me that the number one use of jeeps is to place a command order on and get bonus points. Is there really no role that the jeep should be able to fill besides using a free one to rush into a objective or call in on top of a building to put a defend order on? Maybe we could actually make small blaster turrets do more dps than an assault rifle, that might help and just seems to make sense. Currently I won't put a blaster turret on my tank as a cycled missile launcher is MUCH more effective against everything. Oh and maybe give jeeps enough health to survive a AV grenade? Am I way off base on this? Am I just a crappy tank pilot? Let the flaming begin. I would appreciate some good counter points in the flames if you really do disagree though. tl;dr: Give tanks back half their resists (Less than half their lost life with the new and improved higher price tags) Give Dropships some love, they are abysmal now. Give LAV's some good blaster turrets and a bit of a health bump so they can actually survive a AV grenade. Make forge gun have fire variance so they cannot snipe at long range. Not enough to effect say a 75-100m shot on a tank but enough that they cannot snipe infantry and cant shoot a tank from 400m+ away. EDIT: For those wondering just how much ehp we are talking here, I wen't back and double checked my numbers and my math to make sure they were right and It turns out they were not. So, here is a run down of my previous fit and my new fit and how much It's been hurt. Previous fit: S = 5656 shield hp. A = 1149 armor hp. Rs = 73.5% Shield Resistance Ra = 14% Armor Resistance eHp=(S/(1-Rs/100))+(A/(1-Ra/100)) = 22,679.4 eHp. New fit: S = 7518 A = 1149 Rs = 36.18 Ra = 9 eHp = 13,042.6 (22,679.4-13,042.6)/22,679.4=0.42 So I was wrong, at first. It's actually a 42% drop in ehp. (It's good to work off of correct ehp formula)
Goliath Raven Osmon Surveillance Caldari State 80	Posted - 2012.09.18 06:06:00 - [2] - Quote nakaya indigene wrote: I agree in the respect that this is game built on space vehicles and that the game is centered around vehicles.. this game is straying FAR away from ccp's a future vision video.. vehicles in every scene. this is not COD or BF3. the rhetoric that ccp has been driving this whole time is each role has specific requirement on the battle field and that eve and dust are about gang warfare. the tank pilot needs infantry to cover him and vice versa.. but if there is no tank, or dropship or LAV then the balance of the game has indeed changed to sit on top of a mountain and snipe and swarm. I have been in Sooooooooo many games where these guys would not move from one location.. the dynamic of the battlefield has been disrupted. before this update. it was tank on tank, tanks blew up. lav on lav, lavs blowing up and a couple dropships. NOT what these people on the forums have been saying, about 1 tank wiping the floor with another whole team.. its like the frigate pilot complaining about a battle crustier being OP. STOP TURNING THIS GAME INTO AN INFANTRY GAME. I do think tanks were OP pre this patch, I would clean up an entire team in my tank. However that was mainly because of the 25% nerf to AV. Now AV has that 25% back and a 32% drop in their preys hp. That is too much in the other direction. Small changes CCP.
Goliath Raven Osmon Surveillance Caldari State 80	Posted - 2012.09.18 17:29:00 - [3] - Quote Corban Lahnder wrote: All these things are here to make you think twice about putting your hard earned isk on the line. When your fighting over real facilities in low sec null sec then you can pull out the big guns, as the FW Null secers will be paying top dollar for your time. Clearly if npc matches and TDM is not worth the risk to your tank dont use it. But thank you for the constructive post Op(Heartfelt not sacastic). The only way meaningful changes will be made is if we can have a civil open dialogue about these changes. You're most welcome. And thank you for your civility as well! I do think we have to be very cautious about looking to the future of the game when trying to balance it now. It's true that this game will go through a LOT of changes before launch but ccp has to balance the game through all these stages to get adequate beta testing of all aspects of the game. People are not using dropships and therefor bugs/exploits/quirks/feedback in using dropships are possibly being missed. The same was happening for AV a few weeks ago, the same will happen to tanks. We need to strive to encourage a diverse community now to adequately test all the current aspects of the game so CCP can move forward off a solid base with lots of constructive feedback. In the end tanks will need to be adjusted to work balance with new equipment and new classes and new vehicles. However looking at changes in the future is not an excuse to neglect balance today. Eventually there will possibly be a Titan class vehicle in this game that will cost a billion or more isk and be impervious to all ground troops but likely unable to damage ground troops effectively as well. A kind of mobile anti-tank/anti-air platform. As a Titan in Eve is impervious to all but the highest damaging of ships but can't really hurt anything smaller then a battlecruiser for crap. These are the kinds of vehicles that should be corp sponsored. Something that can be countered by a few AV grenades or a forge gun will never be corp sponsored, Is there any reason you would sponsor a tank right now? If another tank falls on the field you can just send two forge guns at it. That's less resources required to effectively counter against a tank than another tank crew now anyway (3 seats). If you field your tank because of overwhelming assault builds, chances are a few of them will have AV grenades or be able to switch to forge at supply depot and your tank is useless now. As it stands, if I am commanding a corp side in battle, tanks have no place, take out two or three free LAVs instead. Same goes for dropships, currently a waste of isk. That being said, I will still continue to look for a good way to use tanks in current build.